David Cancel van Drift

Oprichter Koffie aflevering 014

Ik ben Jeroen van Salesflare en dit is Founder Coffee.

Elke twee weken drink ik koffie met een andere oprichter. We bespreken het leven, passies, leerervaringen, ... in een intiem gesprek, waarbij we de persoon achter het bedrijf leren kennen.

Voor deze veertiende aflevering sprak ik met David Cancel, oprichter en CEO van Drift, een toonaangevend conversational marketing & sales platform.

Drift is not David’s first baby, nor his first success story. He was previously Chief Product Officer at HubSpot after his company, Performable, was acquired. Before that he also launched and sold Ghostery, Lookery and Compete.

We talk about his backstory, how he likes to build both startups and flowers, why he is still involved in every single hire… and why he doesn’t believe in development sprints.

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Liever luisteren? Je kunt deze aflevering vinden op:

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Welkom bij Founder Coffee.

Jeroen: Hi, David. It’s great to have you on Founder Coffee.

David: Bedankt dat ik mocht komen.

Jeroen: Me too. You’re the founder of Drift. We all love Drift.

David: Bedankt.

Jeroen: But for those who don’t love Drift yet, what do you do?

David: Drift is dus een SaaS-app die mensen helpt. Het leeft op je website en eigenlijk is het alsof je je beste verkoper neemt en hem 24/7 beschikbaar maakt, 365 dagen lang. We doen dat door middel van conversational marketing en een bot die in realtime gesprekken voert met de mensen die naar je website komen.

Jeroen: Ja. Dus als ik live chats hoor, hoor ik op de een of andere manier chatbots.

David: Ja.

Jeroen: You mentioned sales. So it’s kind of the target market you’re focusing on. Is it like sales, live sales?

David: Yeah. It’s sales. Many people had tried to use live chat for sales forum. For at least the last decade or so, they weren’t successful because they weren’t using a support tool in order to do it. What we did was, we’re the first to bring bots to live chat in order to just be able to do sales with real-time qualification, real-time routing, all that kind of stuff. So we define this category as ‘conversational marketing’. But yeah, we do chat. We do email. We do basically everything that has to do with a conversation. So it goes beyond chat. It goes into the email and other places.

Jeroen: So it’s also a marketing automation tool and somehow a sales automation tool.

David: It’s a sales and marketing automation tool, right? We believe that marketing and sales is coming together. We’ve been trying to do that for a long time. We’re organizing them around two things, conversations and revenue. So we’re a platform that lets them do that. We all know that if you have salespeople on your team, no one’s going to be able to sell anything until they have a conversation. The salespeople and marketing systems and automation and all that stuff, for years, has been focused on putting hurdles between you, the prospect, and the salesperson. What we do is remove those hurdles and create like a fast pass direct line between that prospect and the salesperson.

Jeroen: Is dit een soort van, hoe kan ik het zeggen, een kwestie die bij je opkwam toen je nog bij HubSpot zat of hoe is dit ontstaan?

David: Yes. So as you mentioned, I was the Chief Product Officer at HubSpot before this. So I ran product engineering, all that stuff, CRM, built sales products, built all the marketing products. It didn’t have the idea then.

Toen ik vertrok rond de tijd dat we als bedrijf naar de beurs gingen. Ik keek naar messaging en de reden dat ik naar messaging keek was dat ik gefascineerd was door de manier waarop het werd overgenomen. Het was veranderd van alleen nerds zoals ik die messaging gebruikten naar iedereen in de wereld die messaging gebruikte als het eerste dat ze wilden gebruiken.

So I was fascinated by why that was happening and why that was empowering companies like Slack and other companies to grow so quickly. So I was looking at that and I would say I was obsessed with that. I didn’t know how it was going to build, what kind of products that we were going to build because of that. But I just knew that maybe the time was right to finally do something with messaging and sales for the market.

Jeroen: So it’s more like Slack, but done externally.

David: Ja.

Jeroen: Gaaf. Je zei dat je eerder bij HubSpot was.

David: Ja.

Jeroen: Is dat de eerste startup waar je ooit bij betrokken was of waren er al andere? Waar is het eigenlijk begonnen?

David: Yeah, no. There’s been many. So I started four companies before starting Drift. One of those companies, my fourth company, Performable, was acquired by HubSpot in 2011. That’s how I got to HubSpot. I had sold all the other companies, the three others before that, but I had never gone as part of the acquisition. I had always made it a point to leave and this was the first time that I had gone. So I went into HubSpot when we were around $30 million in ARR and around 200 employees. Then I left when we were over 100 million and going public. We were I think 1,200 employees at that point so we added a thousand people in the time that I was there.

Jeroen: Ja. Kun je ons een idee geven wat je eerste startup was?

David: Zeker. Het is zo lang geleden. Ik maakte deel uit van twee startups voordat ik voor mezelf begon en die waren in New York. Maar het eerste bedrijf dat ik voor mezelf begon, was in november 2000. Dus 18 jaar geleden.

Jeroen: Lange tijd.

David: Yeah, a long time ago, almost 18 years ago. That company was called Compete. We sold that company in 2007 to WPP which is the world’s largest marketing PR kind of conglomerate based in the UK. What we did at Compete was it was pretty much SaaS but that didn’t exist as a category back then. We called it like eCommerce for business or some crazy dumb idea, because we didn’t have a category.

Wat we deden was marketing intelligence verkopen aan voornamelijk Fortune 100 bedrijven op dat moment, hoewel we ook een freemium aanbod hadden dat mensen konden kopen. Het was gewoon een gekke tijd omdat je Compete kon gebruiken om erachter te komen hoe je het deed ten opzichte van je concurrenten. Dus je kunt nu tools zoals Alexa gebruiken en nog veel meer soorten competitive intelligence tools. Maar toen we met Compete begonnen, bestonden die nog niet.

Jeroen: Ja, dus het was heel exclusief om te zien hoe je website het deed in vergelijking met anderen.

David: Ja, precies. We concurreerden met Nielsen en comScore en een paar van dat soort grote bedrijven. In principe kocht je het om niet alleen te begrijpen hoeveel verkeer je kreeg en verkeersbronnen en al die dingen die je kunt krijgen op analytics, maar om echt inzicht te krijgen in waarom mensen de keuzes maakten die ze maakten. Het gaf hen inzicht in hoe en wat ze konden veranderen in de strategie om die mensen aan te trekken. Dat soort dingen.

In het begin was het een freemiumproduct, maar niemand kocht toen freemium. Je moet niet vergeten dat mensen in 2000 nauwelijks boeken kochten bij Amazon, toch? Er gebeurde niet veel. Er waren niet veel mensen die hun creditcard online zetten, als je dat kunt geloven, 18 jaar geleden.

Dus moesten we het bedrijf een beetje omgooien en ons echt richten op dit soort Fortune 500, Fortune 100 klanten. Dus super duur. Ze betaalden ons gemiddeld $350.000 per jaar per abonnement en veel van die abonnementen kostten miljoenen dollars per jaar.

We would sell to all the travel companies you could think or finance companies. Later on, before we got acquired, our biggest customer was Google. We were selling to Google and eBay and Microsoft and all those kind of tech companies you could imagine but before that, it was really travel, automotive – all the car companies, finance and all sorts of verticals like that.

Jeroen: Yeah. I guess WPP was selling for you somehow. It was a channel and at some point, they figured out, “We could also buy this.”

David: Ja, WPP was en is het grootste communicatiebedrijf ter wereld. Ik denk dat ze zichzelf zo noemen. Maar ze bezitten PR, ze bezitten marktonderzoek. Ze bezitten al dat soort dingen. Ze bezitten honderden, zo niet duizenden bedrijven. Wat zij wilden was onze mogelijkheid om te zien wat er gebeurde met al die klanten die zij hadden. Dus wij hadden die gegevens over concurrentie-informatie die niemand had en die hen een soort oneerlijk voordeel opleverde in hun werk voor klanten, maar ook in het strategiewerk dat ze aan die grote bedrijven verkochten.

Jeroen: Begrepen. Waar ging je tweede startup dan over?

David: So many. The second startup was called Lookery. That was almost like an accidental startup. I left Compete when we sold it. I wasn’t doing anything. I was just hanging out. Me and a friend kind of accidentally started this company. We weren’t actually trying to start a company. It was during the summer of 2007.

Dit was ook het moment waarop Facebook zijn platform lanceerde. Dit was dus de eerste keer dat Facebook hun platform lanceerde. Er waren toen, als je het kunt geloven, een paar honderd miljoen mensen die Facebook gebruikten, in tegenstelling tot waar we nu zijn, miljarden. We hadden allemaal vrienden die producten, apps, bouwden bovenop Facebook.

Jeroen: Ja, ik weet het nog.

David: Yeah. There was everything from games to horoscopes to everything you could think of. There were a million different things. Later, it just became games. But before that, it was everything you could think of. They just happened to be friends of ours, we knew all those people. Some of those companies later became companies like Ziinga and other companies that went public. But before they did that, they didn’t have a way to make money and so we created this advertising network called Lookery and to help our friends make money, we sold that advertising network to Ad Knowledge. I forgot what year it was, 2008 or 2009. Then I started another thing. I started something called Ghostery.

Jeroen: Ja, dat gebruik ik.

David: Oh, you use it. Yeah, so I started Ghostery around that time, 2009. Then I sold it and now it’s owned by Mozilla in Germany. Then I started Performable which I mentioned earlier.

Jeroen: Ja. Dat lijkt allemaal een beetje in de marketingsfeer te liggen.

David: Yeah, I’ve been in for 18 years. I’ve been in the marketing, sales and data analytics kind of world.

Jeroen: Yeah, but that’s the first time you were in marketing more than sales and actually talking to people.

David: Yeah, although you know it’s all related. Like at HubSpot, I built the CRM and built the sales productivity tools, the sales enablement tools – so that was there. But then too, the first startup, I was a part of the founding team, but not the founder. It was called Bolt, B-O-L-T. Bolt was one of the first social networks on the web.

Again, we didn’t have the category social network so we called it a video website. We had millions of users which back then was incredible because they all had to dial up through modems to get online. In that case, we were building, we were bridging some of these same things, even though it was a social network. I mean, we built something that was like a thread list so you could create your own clothing. This was a long time ago, in 1997.

We built something that kind of looks like Drift but we called it Zap. It was like an instant messenger but it was more than people just talking to each other. We built that back then. We built a lot of this stuff that now seems new but I’ve basically been doing the same thing for a long time.

Jeroen: Hoe voelt dat?

David: It feels like I’m finally figuring it out a little bit. There’s still lots to figure out.

Jeroen: Ja. Hoe ben je in dit alles verzeild geraakt? Wat deed je voordat je de startup-ruimte inging?

David: Yeah, how’d I get into?

Jeroen: Yeah, you’re an engineer by background if I’m not mistaken.

David: Yeah, I was. Yeah, at that first startup, I was the chief software architect and built most of the software there and launched them and everything like that. When I grew up, my parents both worked for themselves. They were immigrants to the United States. So I always grew up wanting to start a business but I didn’t know what business was. I didn’t know why I had this concept in my mind. Because back then, this was before the internet, I didn’t have any role models that did any of this stuff. I didn’t know anyone who owned a business.

So for some reason, I had this in my head and I always tell people that before recent history, before Mark Zuckerberg, nobody wanted to be an entrepreneur. This was not a glorious thing, to start a company. Entrepreneur, I didn’t even know that word when I first started.

Starting your own business or doing what we do now in terms of a startup, was people would think you were a loser. Like why can’t you get a real job? Why can’t you work at a real company? This is not a thing that people bragged about. It was more of a thing that indicated that something was wrong with you or something was weird.

But my wife says that I don’t like being told what to do so that probably had something to do with me wanting to start a company. I had some early mentors, kind of around college age, who were small business owners. I think they had a big impact on me, now looking back and that’s what led me into this world.

I have an obsessive personality and I became obsessed with the early internet and it continues to this day. This idea of the kind of connecting everyone around the world, which we used to talk about in 1996 – that was what was happening with the internet. But it’s never as true as it is today.

Jeroen: Ja, ik denk dat ondernemer misschien niet zo'n ding was, maar je kon wel graag dingen voor jezelf bouwen.

David: Yes, that’s what I like. I like making something from nothing and that could be software, companies, whatever. But I just like the act of creating. That really, really drives me. It still does to this day – whether it’s creating flowers or creating companies, I like doing all of it.

Jeroen: Flowers? You’ve created flowers?

David: Ja, ik hou van tuinieren en dingen kweken. Ik vind alles leuk.

Jeroen: Right. When and what was the first thing you created and you were like, “I’m going to sell it” as well?

David: Oh, dat ik het ging verkopen?

Jeroen: Ja.

David: I’m trying to think. The first time I created something publicly was really the first website that I worked on. I worked on it while I was at school and that’s what fueled to do all of this. But the first time I tried to sell something was probably at Bolt. We created that and we were trying to sell advertising and all that kind of stuff back then.

Jeroen: Je eerste website heb je uiteindelijk verkocht. Was het de GeoCities website of een andere?

David: Dat was vóór GeoCities.

Jeroen: Voor GeoCities.

David: Ja, ik codeerde met de hand, voordat GeoCities begon. Ze begonnen waarschijnlijk een beetje daarna en toen begonnen een paar andere concurrenten van GeoCities ermee. Maar in die tijd moest je het met de hand coderen. Je moest je eigen website met de hand coderen.

Jeroen: Alleen wat HTML-code.

Ja?

Jeroen: Dat was het. Ja.

David: It’s crazy.

Jeroen: Dus je houdt van dingen bouwen. Je hebt een aantal startups gehad, vooral in de marketingruimte. Waren de meeste daarvan bootstrap of VC gefinancierd?

David: Nee. Slechts één ervan was technisch gezien bootstrap. Dat was Ghostery. De rest is gefinancierd met risicokapitaal, waaronder Drift.

Jeroen: Yeah. Is that each time something you thought about beforehand or it’s something that, you just, at some point you needed money and you-

David: The early ones, I think, Compete and a couple. Compete, I definitely thought about it beforehand. Ever since Compete, after we sold Compete, I’ve not thought about it and thought about it as funding it myself including Drift. My intent, in the beginning, was to fund it myself but like I tell people, the way to get investors interested in investing is to tell them you don’t need any money. That’s the truth and that was the truth in all cases.

Jeroen: But you didn’t want them to give you money. Why did you end up having them give you money?

David: Because, well, it depends on every case. In the case of Drift, which is the most recent, I’ll talk about that, it’s because we knew we were going to try to build an enduring company. We knew that we were building a SaaS company and by now, we had built so many SaaS companies that we knew the economics of SaaS. If we wanted to build a company at the speed that we wanted to build it and at the magnitude of how we wanted, it was going to take capital. It’s easy to get SaaS going now, very easy. But to really get to meaningful sizes, it needs capital because SaaS itself as a model consumes a lot of capital.

Jeroen: Yeah. When would you take the capital? When do you decide to like, “My SaaS is ready for the capital?”

David: It’s a personal choice for everyone. For me, at Drift, we took that capital day one.

Jeroen: Dag één.

David: De eerste dag. Dat is ongebruikelijk.

Jeroen: Maar ze moeten het je wel willen geven, dag één.

David: Dat hebben ze gedaan. Wat niet altijd het geval is. Maar ze deden het wel.

Jeroen: What is it that you guys are doing at Drift nowadays. You just said before the talk that you’re very busy.

David: Yeah, crazy. I’d say we’re pretty crazy right now. What are we doing? We’re trying to scale the company from a revenue standpoint and from a people standpoint.

We started this year, the last year 2017, we started the year with around 20 people. We ended the year at 100 people. We started this year obviously at 100 people. We’re going to end the year with around 240 people. So therein lies a lot of stuff that we’re doing, right?

Like a lot of hiring, scaling, training, onboarding and educating, making people effective, all that kind of stuff. Then trying to grow proportionally from a revenue size. We’re trying to 5X our revenues this year. Last year we 20X’ed our revenue. Of course, coming from a small number. But yeah, we’re trying to grow quickly. We’re fortunate in that there’s a lot of headroom in what we’re trying to grow.

Jeroen: Ja. Wat is jouw rol in dit alles? Wat is jouw rol?

David: Ik doe podcasts zoals deze.

Jeroen: Yeah, that’s all?

David: That’s all I do!

Jeroen: Best goed.

David: Yeah, I wish I just do that. What I do is, I spend most of my time trying to help other people reach their full potential and become effective. That has everything to do from spending time in hiring. I’m involved in every hire that we make, from intern to the highest level. So I’m in the part of that interview. So you can imagine that it takes a lot of time if we’re trying to have 140 people and everyone you talk to is not hired. That takes time.

Beyond that, I work with our customers a lot. I spend a lot of time with customers. I spend a lot of time in the market and so I help a lot the between marketing and product. But it’s more on marketing than anything else because my co-founder here is great on products. So he’s taken over some stuff there. But I naturally gravitate towards product and now marketing.

So I do our podcasts. I do videos. I do a lot of speaking. So I fly all over the place, all over the world, speaking, spending time with our customers, spending time with prospects. I’m constantly on the move and my days are not the days that an introvert like myself would dream of, right?

I love every minute of it but my calendar is packed back to back on most days. But that’s what the business needs, right? It’s not like me doing deep work right now and putting some headphones on and just sitting in front of my computer. It is not going to move the company forward because I’m not helping anybody else, right? I’m not coding anymore. I don’t really have an effect when I do that at this scale.

Jeroen: Yeah, so it’s all meetings for you, back to back, the whole day.

David: Yeah, meetings or speaking with people or walks or stuff like that. So I hate meetings personally. I don’t have a lot of normal meetings but I do have a lot of one on ones. I believe a lot in investing in that. So we spend a lot of time, mostly walking around. Walking and talking. But in terms of meetings, with process and bureaucrats and all that bureaucratic process, no, we don’t have a lot of that.

Jeroen: Yeah. So one on ones are mostly to align on the way of working or it’s mostly to align on what to do or how to do something?

David: It depends. The way I think about it is and the way that we frame it is, the one on ones is owned by the person. So whatever our meeting was, it’s up to them to create that agenda. It’s their meeting. I’m just there to help them in whatever it is.

So sometimes it might be some of the stuff you mentioned. It might be specific, how do I do something, the how. More often, it’s the ‘why’. Why am I doing something? Why should I feel excited about this?

So I spend a lot of my time mostly there on the ‘why’ – making sure they’re excited. Making sure they’re fired up. Making sure they’re focused in the right areas. Less about the ‘how’ because they know the how better than I do.

Jeroen: Yeah, I understand that. So it’s mostly one on ones. It’s helping on the marketing side also?

David: Marketing, yeah, one on ones. The marketing’s a little different in that. I actually produced some of the marketing. So I’m on the video. I’m on the podcast, so that one, I’m on both sides of it. But from an idea standpoint and from a process standpoint, our marketing head, Dave, runs that.

Jeroen: Okay. You’re the on videos, et cetera but you’re not actually the one strategizing for it.

David: Ja.

Jeroen: Schrijf je dingen?

David: No, not really. I talk more than anything else and then maybe I’ll transcribe some of that stuff.

Jeroen: Ga je het zelf transcriberen?

David: Soms. Soms doet iemand anders het voor me.

Jeroen: You mentioned that you’re spending your time on hiring now.

David: Ja.

Jeroen: You also mentioned that you’re going from 100 to 240.

David: Ja.

Jeroen: Denk je dat je aan het eind van het jaar nog steeds betrokken bent bij elke huur?

David: I don’t know. I’m trying to figure that out.

Jeroen: Klinkt dat haalbaar voor jou?

David: At 240, it does because I did that before. At HubSpot, I grew my team to over 200 and I was involved in most of that. So I do think it’s possible. I do think it’s important. So yeah, this year, I will. Will I be in it next year? I don’t know. I couldn’t tell you at the top of my head what our growth target is for next year in terms of headcount. But it will probably be the same kind of doubling again.

Jeroen: Yeah. That’s going to be an enormous amount of work if you want to be involved in everything.

David: For sure, for sure. But it is the work. I always say it’s the things that don’t scale that help you scale. Like in terms of recruiting people. The reason that I started kind of being in the process years ago, was that it helps with the recruiting process. Like I have people all the time that I may be recruiting at very junior levels or maybe someone who’s a coop or an intern and they’ll say things like, “Wow, I’ve never worked in a company or I’ve never heard of a company where the CEO will talk to me.”

As crazy as that sounds – that sounds crazy to me; like they’ve never worked anywhere where this person would even talk to them. Forget about being in the interview with them. That has a meaningful impact. That helps in the recruiting process and it is the small things like that that people will remember and they will tell other people about.

Jeroen: Het bepaalt ook op een of andere manier de cultuur. Het opent de cultuur van openheid en transparantie als je met de CEO mag praten.

David: Ja.

Jeroen: You also mentioned you’re walking around. Is this also a way of getting people to open up and bring their issues to you?

David: 100%. I always kind of coach people on my team to never have a one on one meeting sitting down in a conference room or in a meeting room or things like that. Because it doesn’t feel like a natural discussion. It feels like an interrogation, right? It feels like you’re being questioned by the police.

The worst versions of these are when people sit there with a laptop open, writing everything, typing everything that you’re writing, or a notepad, writing every word that David is saying. It’s insane, right?

There’s no way that you’re going to be natural or comfortable if you’re looking at someone writing down every single word that you’re saying. Instead, make it like a normal conversation that you would have with someone.

Loop met ze rond, ga koffie drinken. Maak gewoon een wandelingetje buiten en laat ze praten. Ik merk dat als je dat doet, mensen zich meer op hun gemak voelen. Mensen zijn bereid om je dingen te vertellen die ze je normaal gesproken in een ander proces niet zouden vertellen.

Jeroen: So you’re actually walking around doing one on ones?

David: Oh yeah, 100%. I don’t carry any notebooks or anything. I write down nothing. Just focused. I’m just paying attention to them.

Jeroen: Yeah, sounds like a cool job. You said as an introvert, it’s not really what you want, what you like to do all day. But walking around sounds good, no?

David: Yeah, the walking around part. I’ll say I like that part. I like one on ones. It’s like big group meetings and stuff like that, that is not the best.

Jeroen: Zoals gemeentehuisbijeenkomsten en zo.

David: Ja.

Jeroen: Doe je die?

David: Yeah, we are going to do one tomorrow. So we do one usually the first Tuesday of every month. This one we delayed a week but we do those here. I give a lot of public talks so I do that all the time. Then we onboard new people. We have people start two days a month. There are two Mondays a month that people can start. On those days, we have, myself and my co-founder give like an hour-long kind of onboarding talk to those people. I give like half an hour and he gives the other half hour. So I spend my time there. That’s usually five to, I don’t know, from three to nine people depending on the class.

Jeroen: Wat voor ritmes heb je nog meer in het bedrijf als het gaat om de duur van de sprints?

David: We don’t believe in sprints.

Jeroen: Nee?

David: No. Well, I should say I don’t believe in them. What we do is we let every product team decide their own cadence. We have something called the monthly marketable moment where we release something big from one of the product teams. Every month that is like a stand-alone product, almost. It’s huge. But those teams could work on that for a while.

We have lots of teams working in parallel. But otherwise, we work on a daily cadence. We don’t work on this kind of artificial sprint thing. We work on this daily cadence and we have a methodology that we’ve created which is the ‘continuous development methodology’ and I’ve written about it in this book I wrote called ‘Hyper Growth’. It’s free on our website or you can get it on Amazon. It goes into details about it.

But our cadence, otherwise, outside of that monthly meeting is that we have a Monday metrics meeting. So this morning we had a meeting. We have that at 9:30 am every Wednesday. It’s a 15-minute meeting. We don’t like to spend too much time in meetings. We just go over the last week’s performance across product, marketing, sales, support, success – every team. It’s really quick. It’s 15 minutes or less.

We bookend that and we have all company meeting on Fridays. It’s called ‘show and tell’. It’s at the end of Fridays so it’s Friday afternoon at the end of the day and people have beers and it’s fun. In that, people show what they worked on that week.

We started that tradition mostly for the product team so that they can show the customer stuff that they’ve released to the customer that week, and educate the rest of the team.

But now everyone, every team in the company, presents something. Again, it’s really fun and quick and laughs over beers, and relaxing. Then that ends the week. So we have the bookends. At the beginning of the week, we’re like, “How did we do?” and at the end of the week, it is, “What did we actually make?”

Jeroen: For the how did we do part, if it’s only 15 minutes, how do you actually decide on how to deal with the metrics, like how to improve them or where does that happen?

David: That happens. The individual teams work on that all week and how to make it better. We have one person who’s our VP of operations who owns the Monday metrics meeting and puts everything together. He decides on the flow of that meeting and he’s the only one that’s presenting. He’s doing a quick run through all the metrics.

Right now, we’ve done it for so long that we have a pretty streamlined and effective method there. But the solution on how to fix things, those solutions don’t come from us, from me or from him or from someone else. They come from the teams. The teams have to decide that.

Jeroen: Klinkt goed. Wat is eigenlijk de belangrijkste vaardigheid of verzameling vaardigheden die jij als oprichter in het bedrijf inbrengt?

David: I’m trying to figure this out over the years. What am I actually good at. I’d say I’m good at zooming in, zooming out – that’s my style of management. I’m good at going into whatever the domain is because I’m obsessive about learning. I can learn things really quickly at a fairly good level, not the deepest but pretty deep. So I can go pretty deep because I’m so obsessive about stuff. So I can do that. I can zoom in and then I zoom out a lot and then I work at a very high level. So what that looks like every day is that I’m good at or I’m decent at the high-level stuff and I spend a lot of time there and we talked about some of that stuff. Then I zoom in at a very low level – like having interviews with people, giving product feedback, giving marketing feedback and then I zoom back out.

That’s kind of my skill now. I can do that easily. I spend no time in the middle, like how do we solve something and how do we do that. That’s for the teams to handle. I work at the very high level and on the very low level and I care about every single detail like moving to a new office. I care about what do the colors look like, what does the layout look like, what does the experience look like, how will it feel for a new person coming in? Just all sorts of little details that people overlook. I spend a lot of time thinking about those and remain worried about those.

Jeroen: Dan zorgt iemand anders dat het gebeurt.

David: Ja. Ze beslissen hoe ze het willen laten gebeuren.

Jeroen: Yeah, got it. If you say you’re obsessive about learning, how do you go about it? How do you usually learn stuff?

David: I’m super hands on. So I read a lot.

Jeroen: Boeken of blogs?

David: No blogs. Books. Books, videos, audio, that kind of stuff, but usually long form – mostly books and from mentors. So I have a lot of mentors and role models and people. So I spend a bit of my time to just go and meet these people who are ahead of me. Mentors that I have, learning from them. I used to read a lot of blogs and stuff like that but most of that information is not great. It’s not useful, so I stopped doing that. What I look for now are lessons from people who are 10, 20 years ahead of me and have lessons that have stood the test of time. I also look at books that have stood the test of time. So I’m not necessarily reading the newest book but I’m reading the books that have been around for a while and have kind of lasted.

So I’m looking for those things that have stood the test of time. I find most blogs and stuff are very low, little detail and very much a fad in how they wrote things and so I don’t actually spend a lot of time doing that anymore.

Jeroen: Ja, dus wat zijn enkele van de boeken waar we aan moeten denken als je zegt boeken die de tand des tijds hebben doorstaan en wie zijn je mentoren?

David: I have so many. Well, I have a number of them. They’re always changing. I have my first three mentors, all had the same first name, Sam. Yeah, one of them was Sam Lee and he was a guy who was a mentor to me from high school to college. He was the first kind of successful multimillionaire person I had ever met in my life. An immigrant from Taiwan. Started a bunch of wholesale businesses in New York where I grew up.

Then my second mentor was also named Sam and he was a virtual mentor. I believe in virtual mentors a lot. That Sam is Sam Walton and that was through the book. I’ve everything I can on Sal Walton. He started the company called Walmart and I loved his book, ‘Made in America’, that’s a required reading here at Drift.

Then my third Sam is called Sam Zales. He has been a part of many successful companies and a COO of a public company called CarGurus here in Boston and I got to spend time with him. I have other mentors besides those but I’ll start with those three.

Jeroen: Cool. What is the latest good book you’ve read and why did you choose to read it?

David: Oh my goodness. I’m always reading something. I read so many books that I often have too many to recommend. If you ask me for a book recommendation or what was the last good book I read, I’m always stuck.

Er zijn drie boeken die ik aan iedereen van het managementteam bij Drift geef. Omdat dit de drie boeken zijn waarvan ik denk dat ze de manier waarop we bij Drift denken het meest hebben gevormd.

One of them is, I mentioned already and it’s called ‘Made in America by Sam Walton’, so that’s the story of Walmart. The second book is called the ‘Everything Store’ and it’s about Amazon. Then the third book is called ‘Built from Scratch’. That book is the story of a company called Home Depot, which is a big company here.

I didn’t do this on purpose because all the three books are about retail.

Jeroen: That’s what I was about to say.

David: Yeah, it has nothing to do with what you would think that I do. But they’ve had the biggest impact on the way that I think and that’s why I give those books out and ask everyone to read those.

The reason I think so is that lot of what Drift does and the thing that I’m obsessed around is creating this most customer-centric company possible. All of these books, because they are retail, they have to be customer-centric, right? Because they’re dealing, that is the retail business, is just dealing with your customer. So all three of these books are good models in building customer-centric companies and that’s why they’ve had a big impact on me.

But I’ve read a million, million, million other books that I can recommend and one that I’ll just shout out, that if you’re looking for trying to be the best version of yourself, it’s a book called Peak Performance and is written by Brad Stulberg, fantastic book. Brad is actually a personal coach of mine, so I’ll disclose that. So he coaches me and we have calls a couple of times a month.

Jeroen: Now back to the three books. I’ve read the one on Amazon myself. The one about Walmart is on my list. The one on Home Depot, not yet. I’m seeing that they are very customer-centric and that can inspire you. But what are some lessons you would, for instance, take from the Amazon book that you’ve implemented at Drift? Because that I have a hard time seeing.

David: Vind je het moeilijk om dat te zien?

Jeroen: Ja. Zo uit mijn hoofd.

David: Yeah, Amazon is probably the most formative kind of company in terms of Drift and how we think about things. At the end of the day, because what you see of Drift today is chat, sales – you see that kind of stuff that you mentioned at the beginning.

But fundamentally, what we’re trying to do at Drift, kind of our long-term vision is that we’re trying to create the new way that businesses buy from businesses. So because of that, there are a lot of things that are more related to Amazon than you think, at least from the retail side of things. Because Amazon is fundamentally the way we all buy from businesses as consumers.

So we’re trying to look at the models that they have and trying to see which ones of those can we take and learn from, which one of those are not applicable and how do we use these.

Because of that, there’s a lot that overlaps. It’s like if I just think about the way that we train people inside of Drift on marketing, right? In marketing, we talk a lot about or I talk a lot about cognitive biases, social psychology, how do people make decisions to buy things, etc. The best example or one of the best examples that you could use is to go look at the Amazon product detail page, right?

If you’ve been buying from Amazon for as long as I have, since the beginning, since they started actually, you’ll know that the product page has not really changed much.

The design has advanced a lot but it hasn’t changed much. One of the reasons I believe that’s true is because it’s like the perfect page from a social psychology standpoint and we’ll use that page as an example for our marketers to teach them about things like scarcity, right?

Where do you see that on that page? You see that if you look at the page and it says, “Hey, you get free delivery by Wednesday. If you order within eight hours and 13 minutes, you’ll get this at your house by Wednesday.” Or you’ll see little things that will say something like, “Only three left in stock. Order now. More coming soon.” So that’s scarcity.

Then you look at things like social proof, right? It is another way in which we make our decisions. Then you can see the customer reviews on all the product pages. You can see the customer images that people have uploaded, the videos that people have uploaded and all those things are social proof for a product. You can see how high this thing ranks in terms of being the best seller – again, social proof.

So I can continue on and on but there are so many cognitive biases that this page can have when we count; can have anywhere from five to ten different cognitive biases all working at once on this page. Why it’s so successful, is an example for us in marketing.

Jeroen: Ja, ik zie hoe het zich makkelijk laat vertalen naar de markt. Inspireert het ook je producten of je bedrijf?

David: Oh, it definitely does. There, we have very similar kind of leadership principles that they have – obviously about being customer-centric. About seeking out the truth about having a bias for action, right? That is important to us.

Our speed is incredible. Their speed is incredible. So it translates on that end. In terms of our product, obviously, we’re selling to businesses and people who are salespeople. They can do any of that, but if you just look at it from that point, then you’re like, “Oh, they’re not similar.”

But they are similar in the mechanics of how that works because at the end of the day, we are people who are buying on Amazon and whether you sell B2B or not, you’re still a person buying from another person.

Jeroen: So Amazon’s recommendation engine and Drift’s, share both or one and the same thing in the end?

David: Ja.

Jeroen: Cool. Just as the last question, not the easiest one, what’s the best piece of advice you ever got?

David: Oh my goodness. That is a good question. No one’s asked me that, I’m surprised.

What is the best piece of advice? Probably, the one I’m just coming up with at the top of my head is sleeping on it. Sleep on it. We all want to jump and react and give an answer to something right away. But often, the best answer is just to sleep on it and come back to it.

Jeroen: Wat zijn enkele van de dingen waar je op slaapt?

David: Oh, I use the ‘sleep on it’ technique with every hire that we make. So every person that I talk to, I don’t give my opinion on the conversation to the hiring manager until the next day. I let myself sleep on it.

Dat geeft me vaak het juiste antwoord, want je kunt tijdens het sollicitatieproces heel enthousiast worden omdat ze grappig waren en je met ze hebt gepraat en je iemand nodig hebt in deze functie en bla, bla, bla, al die dingen.

Then you might end up with the wrong answer. So I sleep on it. If I still feel excited the next day, then that’s the right answer.

Jeroen: Gaaf. Dank je, David, dat je bij Founder Coffee bent.

David: Heel erg bedankt dat ik mocht komen. Dit was geweldig.

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