{"id":55792,"date":"2018-04-04T06:29:44","date_gmt":"2018-04-04T06:29:44","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/blog.salesflare.com\/?p=55792"},"modified":"2025-06-18T10:29:50","modified_gmt":"2025-06-18T08:29:50","slug":"hubert-palan-productboard-1a8e72f3b339","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/blog.salesflare.com\/nl\/hubert-palan-productbord-1a8e72f3b339","title":{"rendered":"Hubert Palan van Productschap"},"content":{"rendered":"<article class=\"h-entry\">\n<header><\/header>\n<h1 class=\"p-name\">Hubert Palan of Productboard<\/h1>\n<h2 class=\"h2-subheader\">Founder Coffee episode 002<\/h2>\n<section class=\"e-content\">\n<section class=\"section section--body section--first\">\n<div class=\"section-content\">\n<div class=\"section-inner sectionLayout--insetColumn\">\n<p class=\"translation-block\"><img decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone size-full wp-image-64678\" src=\"https:\/\/blog.salesflare.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/hubert-palan-productboard.jpg\" alt=\"Hubert Palan Productboard\" width=\"800\" height=\"800\" srcset=\"https:\/\/blog.salesflare.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/hubert-palan-productboard.jpg 800w, https:\/\/blog.salesflare.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/hubert-palan-productboard-300x300.jpg 300w, https:\/\/blog.salesflare.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/hubert-palan-productboard-150x150.jpg 150w, https:\/\/blog.salesflare.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/hubert-palan-productboard-768x768.jpg 768w, https:\/\/blog.salesflare.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/hubert-palan-productboard-12x12.jpg 12w, https:\/\/blog.salesflare.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/hubert-palan-productboard-350x350.jpg 350w, https:\/\/blog.salesflare.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2018\/04\/hubert-palan-productboard-348x348.jpg 348w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 800px) 100vw, 800px\" \/><\/p>\n<p id=\"f53e\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--figure translation-block\">I\u2019m Jeroen of Salesflare and this is <em class=\"markup--em markup--p-em\">Founder Coffee<\/em>.<\/p>\n<p id=\"bf40\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Every two weeks I have coffee with a different founder. We discuss life, passions, learnings,\u00a0\u2026 in an intimate talk, getting to know the person behind the company.<\/p>\n<p id=\"2fa2\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">For this second episode, I talked with Hubert Palan of <a href=\"https:\/\/www.productboard.com\/?utm_campaign=sales-flare-hubert-palan-productboard-founder-interview&amp;utm_medium=salesflare&amp;utm_source=blog&amp;utm_content=podcast\">Productboard<\/a>. I met Hubert about a year and a half ago at TechCrunch Disrupt at San Francisco, and I\u2019ve been considering using Productboard to professionalize product management at Salesflare ever since.<\/p>\n<p id=\"156c\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p graf--trailing translation-block\">Hubert is a product guy and a thinker at heart. His vision: more excellent products through better product management. We mainly talk about what motivates him, how he manages Productboard, and where he looks for inspiration.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/section>\n<section class=\"section section--body\">\n<div class=\"section-divider\">\n<hr class=\"section-divider\">\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"section-content\">\n<div class=\"section-inner sectionLayout--insetColumn\">\n<p id=\"8c71\" class=\"graf graf--p graf--leading translation-block\">Prefer listening? You can find this episode on:<\/p>\n<ul class=\"postList\">\n<li id=\"c7e8\" class=\"graf graf--li graf-after--p\"><a class=\"markup--anchor markup--li-anchor translation-block\" href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/be\/podcast\/founder-coffee\/id1361209224%3Fmt%3D2\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">iTunes \/ Apple Podcasts<\/a><\/li>\n<li id=\"0cab\" class=\"graf graf--li graf-after--li\"><a class=\"markup--anchor markup--li-anchor translation-block\" href=\"https:\/\/play.google.com\/music\/m\/Itm3izqy3zjcn3w6lmhmveqofhe\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Google Play<\/a><\/li>\n<li id=\"5570\" class=\"graf graf--li graf-after--li\"><a class=\"markup--anchor markup--li-anchor translation-block\" href=\"https:\/\/soundcloud.com\/foundercoffee\/002-hubert-palan-productboard\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Soundcloud<\/a><\/li>\n<li id=\"e11a\" class=\"graf graf--li graf-after--li graf--trailing\"><a class=\"markup--anchor markup--li-anchor translation-block\" href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/Uw4f23ASzAA\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">YouTube<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/section>\n<section class=\"section section--body\">\n<div class=\"section-divider\">\n<hr class=\"section-divider\">\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"section-content\">\n<div class=\"section-inner sectionLayout--insetColumn\">\n<p id=\"2f4a\" class=\"graf graf--p graf--leading translation-block\">Jeroen: Hi, Hubert. It\u2019s great to have you on Founder Coffee.<\/p>\n<p id=\"8923\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: Hi!<\/p>\n<p id=\"e3bd\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: You\u2019re Founder of Productboard. For those who don\u2019t know Productboard yet, what does your company do?<\/p>\n<p id=\"a49a\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: Sure, yeah, thanks for having me. This is a pleasure. At Productboard, we help product teams and product makers make real excellent products. Products that matter to people.<\/p>\n<p id=\"23e3\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">What it means in day to day is that our customers\u2019 product teams at some of the leading companies out there use Productboard to centralize research and user feedback and understand what really matters to their customers, by means of having a centralized repository for insights from the market, customers and prospects through what customer success or customer support team professionals are hearing.<\/p>\n<p id=\"b080\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Then based on that they prioritize ideas and feature requirements. And they organize them in a hierarchy that\u2019s actually manageable, unlike flat backlogs somewhere in JIRA.<\/p>\n<p id=\"03c8\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">You can create and organize hierarchy in Productboard, and then put it on the roadmap, and make sure that everyone around the company is aligned on what\u2019s being built and why.<\/p>\n<p id=\"bf73\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">We also have a portal that customers can set up to collect insights from their customers without doing interviews or without talking with customers directly. It helps you collect the insights at scale.<\/p>\n<p id=\"6577\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: Yeah, cool. So, it kind of centralizes and professionalizes product management.<\/p>\n<p id=\"14b9\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: It\u2019s a CRM for product management. Product managers at Zendesk or Shopify are our customers, and it\u2019s their go to tool. Every day, they go there and they go to find out what\u2019s new, what customers are saying, especially when they want to make a product decision. They see all the features that are being considered and then ultimately prioritize and see the status of it progressing. It\u2019s the product brain of the company.<\/p>\n<p id=\"b040\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: And you normally do use different tools to manage all these things.<\/p>\n<p id=\"61fc\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: Correct, no spreadsheets, no PowerPoints, no Evernote notes, no emails floating everywhere. It\u2019s all in one place.<\/p>\n<p id=\"8b80\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: Got it. Is your personal background in product management?<\/p>\n<p id=\"43a4\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: Yeah, I got a masters in computer science and software engineering and then MBA at Berkeley. I kind of bridge the tech and business worlds. And I spent several years in product management roles, first in consulting at Accenture in Prague. But then here after business school in the Valley at a couple startups.<\/p>\n<p id=\"8155\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">And then at GoodData where I went to be VP of Products. That\u2019s the reason why Productboard exists. Because I was a product manager myself and I understood the pain. And I figured, hey, let\u2019s change that. Let\u2019s solve the pain.<\/p>\n<p id=\"066c\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: At what exact moment was it that you decided to start Productboard? What were you working on? Where were you and with whom?<\/p>\n<p id=\"14b1\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: I\u2019ve always been inspired by people who create great products. And real excellent products will resonate with people, not just on a functional level. Not just like \u201cokay, this works well\u201d, but also on the emotional level. On the level where it actually invokes specific emotions.<\/p>\n<p id=\"a7ba\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">I\u2019ve read all the books and everything I could find on people like Steve Jobs obviously, but also Phil Knight of Nike and Disney as a company and even other CEOs of fast growing startups. Especially those that have some strong brands or have some promotional appeal.<\/p>\n<p id=\"3754\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">I always thought: what must it have been like when Steve Jobs walked on stage and launched the first iPhone? And I know that Apple is an overused analogy, but the thought there was: how was the sense of pride and fulfillment and accomplishment? Because the whole team knew that this was going to fundamentally change lives for so many people.<\/p>\n<p id=\"a817\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">The reason why they knew was because they really very well understood the needs of the customers. They spent so much time analyzing and prototyping and testing and tinkering, with so many different versions. They really put a lot of effort and a lot of focus into creating something delightful.<\/p>\n<p id=\"ba73\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">That\u2019s something that I was always wondering and then when I\u00a0\u2026 after business school and after Steve Blank, the founder of the Lean Startup, was my professor at Berkeley, and the whole lean startup movement was happening: \u201cget out of the building\u201d and \u201ctalk with customers\u201d and all that.<\/p>\n<p id=\"106c\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">I got super excited and then I took off. The reality hit here and I started discovering what it\u2019s really like at many of the companies here. Even in the heart of Silicon Valley. And I found that most companies are driven by sales. Like \u201chey, we sold a deal and there\u2019s a feature request\u201d. Or they\u2019re driven by engineering where you\u2019re building stuff just because you think it\u2019s cool, but you don\u2019t really know whether someone needs it.<\/p>\n<p id=\"f0f8\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: Totally.<\/p>\n<p id=\"954f\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: At the company where I was at, GoodData, we were building a cool BI platform, but the culture was predominantly a sales culture. I was frustrated by that. I wanted to make sure that the decisions were based on the understanding of real customer needs, as opposed to what was sold by the sales team.<\/p>\n<p id=\"b9dd\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">That was the inspiration. The inspiration was \u201chey, let\u2019s create a system\u201d.<\/p>\n<p id=\"5935\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">And of course, if you have a founder who just tells you \u201cShut up. This is what you need to do. And that\u2019s how product management is done.\u201d, then your get stuck. You first need to figure out how to create the moment of revelation or enlightenment first. Then slowly go and change the culture. Change it into a product driven, a customer driven one. Make sure that you have the deep insight and that you a have solid product strategy and then you can execute.<\/p>\n<p id=\"51e7\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Anyway, a long answer but it was the motivation. The company where I was at was a B2B SaaS company, $100 million, well $75 million budget, raised by the time I had left, with Andreessen Horowitz and other top investors. I went to see many of our customers\u2019 business, because we were a BI platform. I interacted on a daily basis with senior leadership at other companies. We were analyzing their businesses and I saw how they operate, and how they ran their product teams as well.<\/p>\n<p id=\"2d11\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">That was the motivation. I said: \u201cCome on, we have all these task management tools like JIRA that are great for engineering, but there is nothing that would help you with deciding what should be on top of the backlog in the first place.\u201d<\/p>\n<p id=\"ea6f\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: Exactly. You have a tool to manage your customers. You have one to manage your development, but the product management falls in between.<\/p>\n<p id=\"6393\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: Where is this system where you have\u00a0\u2026 In most engineering systems, you have entities in the logical model like features, stories, tasks,\u00a0\u2026 It\u2019s all solution centric. Here are all the features that you want to have; let\u2019s break them down into manageable chunks and let\u2019s push them through the engineering pipeline.<\/p>\n<p id=\"6f59\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">There is no entity that represents a customer, or a need, or a problem, or an importance or urgency. None of the stuff that product management is tracking is represented in the logical model of the system.<\/p>\n<p id=\"34b9\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">You have some of the stuff in CRM systems. There you have customers, but it\u2019s very sales focused. It\u2019s about what happens before they become a customer and about seeing them go through the stages.<\/p>\n<p id=\"13b7\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">We create a system that will help people to have this little sense of pride and accomplishment for every feature that they launch as a product person. To have something that will back their decisions, to have something that will give them confidence. To have something that will create transparency around the whole team.<\/p>\n<p id=\"5d6b\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">During the process of building products, people make decisions throughout the whole development life cycle. From the initial research stages, to design, testing and development and product marketing and the whole go-to-market. If everyone throughout this life cycle isn\u2019t very well aligned around the needs of the customers, and if all the people don\u2019t understand very well what matters to the customers, then they will inevitably make the wrong decisions throughout the product development process.<\/p>\n<p id=\"7517\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: Got it.<\/p>\n<p id=\"3f9f\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: Maybe they design a feature in a little different way because they don\u2019t understand the user. Especially if you\u2019re building a B2B system, and you\u2019re designing system for someone who is not you, then it\u2019s more difficult. It\u2019s about creating this shared understanding for everyone on the team. Only then excellent products can happen.<\/p>\n<p id=\"60b2\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: Yeah.<\/p>\n<p id=\"3ff6\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: I talked to a guy who was an advisor of mine. He was at Apple, 20 years ago. He was on the QA team there. And he said that the difference at Apple was that\u200a\u2014\u200atypically in other companies the QA, quality assurance team, says \u201cLook, here\u2019s the spec and test it against the spec. It doesn\u2019t work as specified.\u201d\u200a\u2014\u200aand he said that the difference at Apple was that when he was there that his job wasn\u2019t to sign off on the spec. His job was to sign off on: \u201cIs the customer going to use it the way it\u2019s built?\u201d<\/p>\n<p id=\"72ce\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">That creates a very different mindset, because suddenly you are asked to think about what matters to the customers and about the real use case, the real flow, as opposed to just what\u2019s in the spec. It\u2019s a subtle shift, but it has some major implications, if you create a culture like that.<\/p>\n<p id=\"40dc\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: We try to cope with it personally by\u2026 We have issues and features, but then there is an in between point where it\u2019s not broken, and it\u2019s not like we didn\u2019t intend to make it like that. It\u2019s just not working for the customer. We label this a \u201cUX improvement\u201d.<\/p>\n<p id=\"42be\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">This is a different type of development job we have. This is actually making sure that we build Salesflare the way that people will actually use it, or that we adapt it to the way they would like to use it.<\/p>\n<p id=\"aeea\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">And we take these \u201cUX improvements\u201d even more seriously than issues sometimes.<\/p>\n<p id=\"40c2\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: Yeah, yeah, good.<\/p>\n<p id=\"a56b\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: We\u2019re still doing without Productboard, but we\u2019re looking at it.<\/p>\n<p id=\"488c\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: Sure, you\u2019ll come around eventually. [laughs] Everyone will.<\/p>\n<p id=\"6a55\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: Have you always known that you wanted to do a startup or is it something that just came to you when you were at GoodData?<\/p>\n<p id=\"21a8\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: Have I always known? Of course, I didn\u2019t know. Well in life, are you asking me at the age of eight, did you know that\u2026<\/p>\n<p id=\"ee43\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: Always, I don\u2019t know. But with always I mean from the moment you were actually thinking about professional stuff. Did you feel like you want to start your own company or did this just come at some moment?<\/p>\n<p id=\"176d\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: Yeah, I think that it was on the back of my mind, but the environment where I grew up\u2026 I grew up in Czechoslovakia and then in Czech Republic. I\u2019m almost 40. I\u2019ll be 40 this year. It wasn\u2019t the most entrepreneurial culture to start with.<\/p>\n<p id=\"8524\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">When I go down to college or my masters, I was like: \u201chey, what am I going to do\u201d. I studied computer science, so I wanted to be in the digital world, but then I figured: \u201cI want to see how companies are run and how companies operate\u201d. That\u2019s why I went to consulting and then I joined Accenture in systems integration consulting and then in business strategy consulting, but still within the technical realm.<\/p>\n<p id=\"0e8b\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">At the moment when I started seeing how banks work, and insurance companies and those large group corporations. Then I figured: \u201cOh my God, this is terrible. And things can be done so much better.\u201d That was the motivation for me to say \u201cI\u2019m going to build my own company one day.\u201d<\/p>\n<p id=\"2b34\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">I hated politics and I always wanted to be at a company where everyone, including the janitors, would be proud to be working for the company. Where people would identify with the mission.<\/p>\n<p id=\"5c8d\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">I never understood people who work at companies just for the money. Why don\u2019t you go do something that you actually love and make money? Of course, in our world, we are lucky in the sense that, if you\u2019re an artist, it\u2019s harder to make money and do what you love. In tech or business, you get both.<\/p>\n<p id=\"a2e0\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: We can do what we love and earn money if we\u2019re successful.<\/p>\n<p id=\"69a3\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: Right. It\u2019s a big game for us.<\/p>\n<p id=\"77f4\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: For them chances are also there, but they\u2019re much smaller.<\/p>\n<p id=\"64ac\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: Yeah, yeah. The scale, it\u2019s the aspect of scale.<\/p>\n<p id=\"e51d\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: It\u2019s maybe also more objective than being an artist. As an artist, you create something and if you can convince people that it\u2019s nice\u2026 While probably in our trade there\u2019s much more of a\u2026 if you build a nice product, at least you have a bigger chance of being successful, or don\u2019t you think so?<\/p>\n<p id=\"8469\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: Surely.<\/p>\n<p id=\"de62\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: Or do you think it\u2019s all marketing?<\/p>\n<p id=\"9371\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: No, no, no. I think that in products the art, that\u2019s kind of the emotional side. And taste is acquired, but you can also influence the taste of other people if you\u2019re consistent, if you have a strong vision.<\/p>\n<p id=\"f403\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">I like creating things that are practical. Both functional and emotional. Products that solve problems. That\u2019s why I love art and architecture and design as a discipline.<\/p>\n<p id=\"1011\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">But ultimately, I want to see it apply to something that advances people\u2019s lives.<\/p>\n<p id=\"86bc\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: You started as a business consultant and you like art and architecture. Is this something that comes from your family or parents?<\/p>\n<p id=\"0fd9\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: Yeah, probably. Now we\u2019re getting really deep. My great-grandfather was a diplomat and he died in a concentration camp during the Nazi Germany.<\/p>\n<p id=\"d267\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">And my mom was in marketing. She ran marketing for Hewlett-Packard in Czech Republic\u200a\u2014\u200aSlovakia, and then for Olympus. I\u2019ve always thought about the soft side of things more than your typical techy guy. And empathy and emotions. I just think it\u2019s so important in product management. And I talk to many product managers, and they\u2019re analytical and very functionally oriented: \u201cLet\u2019s solve the problem.\u201d<\/p>\n<p id=\"647f\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Fast moving consumer goods companies, the P&amp;Gs and so on, they\u2019re much better in general in the discipline of product management. They\u2019ve been doing research and are making sure that they understand the needs. They have been thinking with emotions.<\/p>\n<p id=\"2427\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">But in the tech world, it hasn\u2019t been the case. Even brands and big successful companies like <a href=\"https:\/\/blog.salesflare.com\/compare-salesforce-zoho-hubspot-pipedrive#boelc\">Salesforce<\/a>, they have a huge followership, but if I say \u201cSalesforce\u201d, does it make you feel warm and fuzzy or something? It\u2019s not like if I say \u201cNike\u201d. You have an emotional reaction. If I say \u201cApple\u201d, you have an emotional reaction.<\/p>\n<p id=\"a8bd\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Zendesk had a great brand with the buddha and Zen, because that resonated so well with the customer support people. You\u2019re under stress and people complain, unless your product or service is excellent.<\/p>\n<p id=\"eda0\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Intercom is doing a great job. It\u2019s being human, but there\u2019s not that many companies like that. The kind of traditional brand and emotional marketing\u2026 you don\u2019t see it that much in tech. It\u2019s always about the functional benefits.<\/p>\n<p id=\"810d\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: Maybe that has a bit to do with the type of companies they\u2019re marketing to. If you\u2019re like <a href=\"https:\/\/blog.salesflare.com\/compare-salesforce-zoho-hubspot-pipedrive#boelc\">Salesforce<\/a>, you market to enterprises. They find specs lists interesting. While small companies will go much more for the more consumer type marketing where you have emotions and not ROI or something.<\/p>\n<p id=\"e48d\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: Totally, I get it, and of course you can say that in enterprise and in B2B the customer is not the user. The buyer is not the user. Therefore, it\u2019s much more about functional requirements and of course this is the case if you\u2019re selling large enterprise deals. You\u2019re dealing with procurement people and that\u2019s a different persona.<\/p>\n<p id=\"989f\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">At the same time, I think that the consumerization of the enterprise is happening and I read this article just last week in Harvard Business Review. It was a pyramid of needs and you still have the emotional aspects high up. The sense of pride and showing others that you\u2019re competent and just striving at your job and feeling amazing. It\u2019s important even in the enterprise.<\/p>\n<p id=\"239a\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">I think that it\u2019s changing more and more. And you see it, really in the long term. The user experience I believe is the only sustainable competitive advantage. Because functional aspects can be copied. They are being copied. More and more and faster and faster.<\/p>\n<p id=\"73ed\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">But the emotional piece, the appeal. How it makes you feel and what you got to believe in and why we\u2019re using the tool, that\u2019s something that\u2019s much, much harder to copy. Look at Apple. That\u2019s been their play all along. Of course, the products are great in terms of functionality as well, but the emotional appeal, the delight that it creates\u2026<\/p>\n<p id=\"d46c\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Of course, it\u2019s a different segment, there\u2019s multiple segments in the market. Not everyone is their ideal target customer and not everyone cares about that. But for the segment that they go after, it matters a lot.<\/p>\n<p id=\"1976\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">If you just match the features but don\u2019t match the emotional appeal, then people are going to switch.<\/p>\n<p id=\"48c1\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: Which other startup or founder do you look up to and why is that?<\/p>\n<p id=\"3e33\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: I mentioned the big guys. The big successful companies because there\u2019s a long history of what you can study, and there is a history of what they did and how they turned out.<\/p>\n<p id=\"82ea\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Of course, in hindsight it\u2019s always 20\/20, and you kind of forget the bad things, and maybe you connect the dots in a more idealistic way than it really happened.<\/p>\n<p id=\"bc7c\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">But still there is more to study. So that\u2019s why I mentioned companies like Nike, Apple, and I even mentioned Zendesk and Intercom.<\/p>\n<p id=\"5aae\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">The Intercom team is inspiring to me. I\u2019ll also look to companies that are in different industries, not necessarily just who\u2019s around here in the Valley.<\/p>\n<p id=\"088a\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">I put together this blog post and it\u2019s on my Medium. I collected videos of 20 top unicorn companies\u2019 CEOs. I put it all on this one feed and I watched it. I really wanted to see how the CEOs and founders of all these top companies, how they are and I wanted to see how they speak in real life, because there\u2019s so much more you can get from the sense of who they are as people.<\/p>\n<p id=\"4dd7\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: You\u2019ll be happy to follow this series as well then. The founder of Intercom, well one of them at least, Des Traynor, is also going to be on.<\/p>\n<p id=\"174e\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: Yeah, I know Des. Des is great.<\/p>\n<p id=\"b0b1\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: That\u2019s going to be cool.<\/p>\n<p id=\"16ef\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: I just read this book called \u201cMastery\u201d. There\u2019s a lot of examples and case studies about the biggest people overall. The biggest inventors and stories of the biggest people of humanity.<\/p>\n<p id=\"7d8f\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">I look for examples of people that I know are amazing and I spend more time studying them. I obviously see founders around me who I think are real people. But for me, personally, the biggest inspiration comes from people that really dedicated their lives. Veterans in medicine or architecture or biology. It doesn\u2019t matter. The passion and the focus and the excitement with which they live their lives. How they really stay focused and how they didn\u2019t waste their life doing things that are not important.<\/p>\n<p id=\"ba36\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">They really realized that life is short and that we need to work hard. It comes down to excellence for me. And the strive for excellence in everything that you do. Sorry, I didn\u2019t give you examples of recent startup founders that I find inspiring. But Darwin was super inspiring to me in what he did and by his persistence.<\/p>\n<p id=\"182d\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: That\u2019s cool. In terms of how this reflects on your ambitions: where do you want to go with Productboard? You want to make it really big?<\/p>\n<p id=\"07d6\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: Yeah, I think we are creating a whole new category.<\/p>\n<p id=\"b535\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">The product management discipline is at the heart of every company. Whether you\u2019re creating digital products or physical products or even services; you are combining the deep customer insight. Your strategic approach to how you\u2019re going to get to where you want to go. How you\u2019re going to form the vision and the execution.<\/p>\n<p id=\"0c41\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">In every company there\u2019s people who are making product decisions. It doesn\u2019t have to be necessarily someone who has a \u201cproduct manager\u201d title. But there are people who make product decisions.<\/p>\n<p id=\"7f1b\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">I think that the market for us is huge, in the sense that we have customers who are not just digital.<\/p>\n<p id=\"1172\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Although our ideal customers are people who are making digital products. Don\u2019t take me wrong. Like SaaS products or <a href=\"https:\/\/www.luigisbox.com\/blog\/e-commerce-tools\/\">e-commerce platforms or apps<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p id=\"0c83\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">The fact that software is eating the world and that everything is being digitized helps us.<\/p>\n<p id=\"7658\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">There\u2019s what I call digital product managers. But we even have customers like an RV manufacturer up in Canada or an exoskeletal device company. Because with physical products, you collect feedback and you improve that as well. You have more constraints.<\/p>\n<p id=\"94a4\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">The market in a sense is big. Product management is one of the last functions in any company that hasn\u2019t had a very good toolset.<\/p>\n<p id=\"7369\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">You have CRMs and you have engineering task management tools. You have Workday in the HR realm. You have analytics business intelligence stuff. Then we have marketing automation. We have customer success.<\/p>\n<p id=\"e071\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">All these fields have dedicated software to help do their job better. But product management has been stuck. So, I think that we have a potential to really own this category.<\/p>\n<p id=\"f320\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Product excellence. I want companies to think about product management as product excellence.<\/p>\n<p id=\"f732\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: Your ambition is basically to professionalize product management and have the world full of great products.<\/p>\n<p id=\"8520\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: You\u2019re an expert in sales, right? Think before CRM how sales were done. You would have a spreadsheet and you would have a Rolodex. You had business cards and you would try not to forget things.<\/p>\n<p id=\"dcc9\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">And then CRMs, customer relationship management systems, standardized the process, created transparency, increase the predictability, lowered the risk that you\u2019re not going to hit your number. Because you have the system in place.<\/p>\n<p id=\"dcba\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Of course, you always have genius outliers, who will sell because they\u2019re charming. They are the outliers. But most of your sales team is going to sell well if they have a good process, if they\u2019re consistent, and if they do the hard work. If they follow up and do the day to day.<\/p>\n<p id=\"0ef9\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Product management is the same thing. I\u2019m not saying that because of a system, you will suddenly turn into Apple, and you will be turning out the best of the best products. But I\u2019m saying that thanks to a solution like Productboard, for product excellence, the chances of launching better products in the market and the chances of eliminating the risk and increasing the predictability of success are going to go up.<\/p>\n<p id=\"178d\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Like in sales, like in customer support\u2026 If you suddenly have a system, it\u2019s organized, there\u2019s transparency. If a product manager leads your team, the knowledge stays in the company. It doesn\u2019t walk out of the door. All that is contributing.<\/p>\n<p id=\"f055\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">That\u2019s a big opportunity for us.<\/p>\n<p id=\"4d09\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: Yeah, totally. Very nice. It would be great if more software products would actually be better products.<\/p>\n<p id=\"d777\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: Yeah, software is hard in the sense that it has so many more constraints than hardware products.<\/p>\n<p id=\"de65\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">There\u2019s this joke in the design world. There\u2019s this picture floating around of a remote control that has hundred buttons or so. You need just two to change the channels and change the volume. You can screw up and you can create an over complicated product even in the physical world.<\/p>\n<p id=\"3684\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">But in the software world, you don\u2019t have the physical boundaries and it feels easy and cheap to just shove another feature into the product. And think \u201cThat\u2019s okay, not everyone will use it.\u201d That\u2019s a danger and that\u2019s why it\u2019s harder. The constraints are much more relaxed.<\/p>\n<p id=\"377d\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">If you do it right, you can actually create infinite variations of your product and the user experience wouldn\u2019t be impacted for any of the customer segments that you\u2019re serving, as long as they would be exposed to the complexity of all the different variations.<\/p>\n<p id=\"3c82\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">The only problem is that it\u2019s very difficult to create a product like that and make sure that the features are really hidden completely, so that you don\u2019t end up with the ribbon in Microsoft Office, where you have so much stuff and you don\u2019t need most of it.<\/p>\n<p id=\"f68f\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">If I didn\u2019t see it, if I\u2019m not the type of customer who needs it, I shouldn\u2019t even see it. Then it\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n<p id=\"2d17\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">But that\u2019s not the reality. That\u2019s not how the software products are built.<\/p>\n<p id=\"639f\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: They\u2019re more built to show a lot of features that people are looking for, instead of making it easy to actually use those features.<\/p>\n<p id=\"a2dd\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: Yeah, most products. Not all of them. There are exceptions, but most.<\/p>\n<p id=\"a8d2\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: Cool. Do you think that if you win the lottery tomorrow you\u2019d still be working at Productboard, or would you choose to do something else?<\/p>\n<p id=\"bca9\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: It\u2019s like a baby. You know it as a founder. It\u2019s your baby. You want to see it grow up. I want to see it grow up.<\/p>\n<p id=\"da90\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">If I won the lottery, I might raise less money from VCs and put the lottery winnings in my company.<\/p>\n<p id=\"ea95\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">But I really like what I\u2019m doing. I believe in the vision.<\/p>\n<p id=\"6f31\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: That\u2019s cool.<\/p>\n<p id=\"b11d\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: Maybe I wouldn\u2019t put all my money into it.<\/p>\n<p id=\"86bf\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">I actually I read the previous interview that you did with Adam Hempy. You guys talked about VC funding and all that. I actually like the aspect of bringing VCs on, not just because of the money, but I believe that your chances of succeeding are higher if you share the success. If you involve more people, and if you interest more people in your success.<\/p>\n<p id=\"ea81\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">I found the investors that I\u2019ve had so far helpful in that regard that more people are on your team. More people are trying hard.<\/p>\n<p id=\"77c4\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Of course, it\u2019s got trade-offs and you\u2019re losing control and all that. But the fact that more people are investing into your success\u2026 I think it\u2019s a huge deal.<\/p>\n<p id=\"a753\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: Do you think they\u2019re really invested in your success? Are they not more invested in their overall portfolio than in specific cases?<\/p>\n<p id=\"04cd\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: They look at it from a portfolio perspective. They need someone in their portfolio to succeed. Then the portfolio math works out and they can deliver the ROI that they promised to the investors. That\u2019s something else driving it.<\/p>\n<p id=\"2c46\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">But that means that they want you to succeed, because they want you to be this successful company in the portfolio. I think that from that perspective the incentives are aligned, and I don\u2019t see friction here.<\/p>\n<p id=\"db32\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: Okay. What is it that you\u2019re busy with right now? What keeps you up at night lately for Productboard?<\/p>\n<p id=\"3008\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: I sleep well. I manage to get my life under control and I manage to distance myself from the stress. There\u2019s this huge business stress. And so many things are happening at the same time. But I told myself that if I\u2019m going to be worried about it, and if I\u2019m going to be stressed out\u2026<\/p>\n<p id=\"400b\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Don\u2019t take me wrong, I was so stressed in the early days of the company. There was so much pressure. Everyone tells you, \u201cYou\u2019re nuts. This is never going to work.\u201d<\/p>\n<p id=\"daa2\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">I always joked about it. It\u2019s like you have a baby. You just had a baby and you\u2019re walking around and showing it to people and some people say, \u201cOh my God, this is so beautiful! Congratulations! I wish you all the health.\u201d But with the early stage start up, unfortunately there\u2019s more people who look at the baby and say, \u201cOh man, I\u2019m sorry that the baby is so sick. It\u2019s not looking good.\u201d Right. You need to get over it.<\/p>\n<p id=\"afaa\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">But right now, we\u2019re doing well and we\u2019re growing. That stress went away a little bit and I managed to distance myself from the day to day.<\/p>\n<p id=\"54d2\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">I have a very strict schedule that I stick to. I planned all my work time, family time, friend time. I have everything in my calendar. I follow the schedule and then I don\u2019t feel like I\u2019m not attending to my family or vice versa to my business. I made a conscious decision of how much time I\u2019m going to dedicate to each.<\/p>\n<p id=\"cced\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Of course, it\u2019s not ideal. Sometimes you need to break the rules. But it just gives me this confidence.<\/p>\n<p id=\"6ee9\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">I get up at five and I go for a run. Then I go to the office. I have mornings that I have meetings and then in the afternoon, I have a block of four hours of time.<\/p>\n<p id=\"69a9\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">There\u2019s this great book called \u201cThe One Thing\u201d that inspired me to do all this. I have an uninterrupted block of time for the most important thing that I\u2019m working on every day. And I have a scheduled time to rip up and plan. It really helped me. I\u2019ve been doing it for several months now and I love it.<\/p>\n<p id=\"c710\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: What\u2019s that book called?<\/p>\n<p id=\"9260\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: I think it\u2019s called \u201cThe One Thing\u201d.<\/p>\n<p id=\"7cfb\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: And who is it written by?<\/p>\n<p id=\"c84c\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: The book is by Gary W. Keller and Jay Papasan. The One Thing.<\/p>\n<p id=\"034f\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: Okay. So, you get up at five, you said?<\/p>\n<p id=\"eaaa\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: Yeah, well. I\u2019m here in San Francisco and we are distributed. Part of the team is in Prague, in the Czech Republic. So, I need to have an overlap with Europe and in the SaaS business you have customers all around the world. That dictates my schedule.<\/p>\n<p id=\"6baa\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">I\u2019m on the early morning schedule. And I even go to bed early. And I also have a two-year-old baby boy. You can\u2019t sleep in the morning anyway.<\/p>\n<p id=\"83dd\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: You have aligned with the baby.<\/p>\n<p id=\"c863\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: Exactly.<\/p>\n<p id=\"b104\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: At what time do you get to bed then? Do you sleep eight hours or?<\/p>\n<p id=\"6c96\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: I try to, yeah. Like I shoot for nine, often times it\u2019s ten, but I shoot for eight hours. I just think you\u2019re more productive.<\/p>\n<p id=\"8166\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">I\u2019ve done my crazy, crazy years, where I didn\u2019t sleep much and I saw the toll. The physical penalty. You make more mistakes and you don\u2019t think so clearly. It\u2019s not worth it. It\u2019s so not worth it.<\/p>\n<p id=\"3353\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">I\u2019ve changed. I said: \u201cLook, when I work, I\u2019m going to put the most and best of my skills and effort into it.\u201d At the end of the day what I achieved is what I could have achieved. You can always spend more time, but you can do it tomorrow and not instead of sleeping.<\/p>\n<p id=\"dabf\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">But again, if there\u2019s a big launch. We had a big product launch in November. That is a big deadline and we didn\u2019t sleep and all that, but that\u2019s an exception. It\u2019s an exception. You don\u2019t do that on a regular basis.<\/p>\n<p id=\"e7ac\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: What do you do to stay sane? You go running, you said?<\/p>\n<p id=\"3361\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: I run and I work out. After my run, there is this little playground by the lake I run around. I do squats and pushups, pullups, and all that stuff.<\/p>\n<p id=\"7f18\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Then I get relaxation, it\u2019s time with my kid and my wife. It\u2019s amazing. It\u2019s a different world.<\/p>\n<p id=\"a9cf\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">My wife is a nurse practitioner, which is like a physician or family doctor. That gives me also a perspective, because I come from work and I complain like \u201cOh, this customer is making it so difficult. The legal contracts. There\u2019s so much friction. I had a bad interview with someone.\u201d And she looks at me and she tells me how people are struggling in their lives and dying.<\/p>\n<p id=\"8bc0\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">It\u2019s a completely different perspective. That keeps me in check as well. It brings me to reality. That it\u2019s not all just about making products. And that the vision that I have, that is it\u2019s a big vision, but at the end of the day, you\u2019re in a society with people.<\/p>\n<p id=\"e5ac\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">I also pay attention to politics a lot, because it\u2019s just frustrates me that there\u2019s so many things that could be done better. I spend time on that. Even though I wouldn\u2019t say that politics is relaxing. It\u2019s not fun and relaxing unfortunately.<\/p>\n<p id=\"f57c\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: At this point in your startup, what are the responsibilities that you mainly take up? What do you spend your day on?<\/p>\n<p id=\"569f\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: Mostly, it\u2019s hiring because we\u2019re growing and we just need help on so many fronts. I spend most of my time hiring.<\/p>\n<p id=\"399c\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">And then, we\u2019re like 25, I think, right now. We still don\u2019t have processes for everything.<\/p>\n<p id=\"60b3\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">And some of the more complex legal stuff. I need to be involved and review contracts. I like to understand everything that\u2019s happening in the company. Maybe I should be delegating that more, but I just don\u2019t feel comfortable leaving it just to the lawyers. I actually take the time to really understand every negotiation point that we\u2019re discussing with our large enterprise customers.<\/p>\n<p id=\"008e\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">That would be the biggest things: hiring, complex contracts, and processes.<\/p>\n<p id=\"729d\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Another big chunk is communication, especially with the distributed team. We have regular updates. I make sure that everyone understands what\u2019s happening in the company.<\/p>\n<p id=\"e6d9\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">I\u2019ve seen the different teams create their own culture. There\u2019s a danger that the engineers would start looking down at marketers. \u201cEngineering is the hard shit\u201d and stuff. \u201cMarketing is the easy stuff.\u201d I don\u2019t agree with that at all. I think that every part of the company contributes and I want everyone to understand what\u2019s happening.<\/p>\n<p id=\"7deb\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">So, we take the time to communicate what\u2019s happening and what every team is doing. We make sure that everyone understands the complexities. Everyone can come up with ideas for how to improve anything anywhere, whether it\u2019s marketing, sales, engineering, design,\u00a0\u2026 I spend a lot of time making sure that I know who heard what and making sure that everyone\u2019s involved.<\/p>\n<p id=\"2b39\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Those would be probably the biggest areas.<\/p>\n<p id=\"9524\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: What are the main processes you use or tools you use to do this? We have things like standup meetings. Do you use Slack?<\/p>\n<p id=\"b7a1\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: Yeah, yeah, so we\u2019re on Slack. Everything\u2019s on Slack.<\/p>\n<p id=\"41dc\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">We have a regular all-hands meeting on a weekly basis. On a monthly frequency, the all-hands meeting is more detailed and longer and there is a wrap up for every month and it\u2019s on progress towards the bigger objectives. On a weekly basis, it\u2019s a little more tactical.<\/p>\n<p id=\"5c0b\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">We have a product call on which we discuss product specific things. We have a customer success call. We have a marketing call. All the different parts of the business.<\/p>\n<p id=\"cdf9\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">One thing that we started doing that I really like is that every team sends every day, a very short daily update into a Slack channel. With just a few bullet points of the main things that they achieved that day. That\u2019s a way for everyone in the company to quickly read it every day in the morning. For me, it\u2019s morning. In Europe, it\u2019s the afternoon. To read it and to get a pulse of what\u2019s happening in the company. It\u2019s been working really well from my perspective. I feel like I know what\u2019s happening and I would recommend doing that.<\/p>\n<p id=\"dfef\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: Yeah, that\u2019s kind of like a standup meeting, but on a team level instead of on an individual level.<\/p>\n<p id=\"98ba\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: Yeah, but it\u2019s asynchronous. It\u2019s not a standup meeting in the sense that everyone\u2019s in the room and standing.<\/p>\n<p id=\"cf19\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: Yeah, but standup meetings can be asynchronous as well. Here in the office we do it synchronous, but you can use a software like Standuply. You could do it asynchronously. You just basically do it electronically like you\u2019re doing. And it tracks your progress over time. You say what you\u2019ve been doing the day before. What you\u2019re going to do the next day. And that way it helps to stay up to speed with what\u2019s happening.<\/p>\n<p id=\"cbbd\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: What\u2019s it called? Standuply?<\/p>\n<p id=\"d529\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: Standuply, yeah. They\u2019re pretty cool guys.<\/p>\n<p id=\"2753\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: I\u2019ll check it out.<\/p>\n<p id=\"a123\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: They\u2019re from Greece. I met them at a few conferences.<\/p>\n<p id=\"2749\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: Alright, yeah, I remember. I saw that somewhere. I\u2019ll check it out.<\/p>\n<p id=\"7817\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: We also spend a lot of time communicating, because it\u2019s really important that everybody knows what everybody is up to. Getting to work as a team.<\/p>\n<p id=\"6ef0\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: Yeah.<\/p>\n<p id=\"7028\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: You mostly talked about communicating the planning. What\u2019s the schedule for the planning? Do you do it bi-weekly, monthly?<\/p>\n<p id=\"3da2\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: Sure, yeah. We have three teams right now. This changes, but in the big picture, we plan in six-week cycles.<\/p>\n<p id=\"4ad7\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">In the six-week cycle, we always set big initiatives or objectives that we want to achieve. Each team has this one big objective, one big area of focus towards which we prioritize and then plan the tasks.<\/p>\n<p id=\"4ca6\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Of course, along the line, there\u2019s always a continuous stream running in parallel with opportunistic things I call initiatives, which is something that maybe you\u2019ll prioritize over others, as long as it\u2019s aligned with the strategy and the direction that we\u2019re going. That goes into the prioritization.<\/p>\n<p id=\"990a\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">There\u2019s several bug also and there\u2019s regulatory things, right. That\u2019s compliance and now GDPR is happening and so all that stuff is running.<\/p>\n<p id=\"1a6d\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Or something that\u2019s external, like a partner of ours is going to be doing a big launch and they need us to prepare something.<\/p>\n<p id=\"7376\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Things often happen at the last minute. That\u2019s something that we will then try to squeeze in obviously.<\/p>\n<p id=\"ee4d\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">We\u2019re of course using Productboard. We have all the initiatives side by side in columns. It\u2019s like a matrix. You have all the initiatives side by side, and then in rows, you have all the tasks, all the features that we\u2019re working on. You see which feature contributes to which initiative and you see whether it\u2019s a must have, or should have, or nice to have. And then you also have, next to it, columns with progress.<\/p>\n<p id=\"c93f\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">You have this one big picture view of everything that\u2019s happening across all the teams. It scales beautifully, even if you had 10 teams. You can have them side by side and you see it all in one place. And you can filter it and you can slide and dice it the way you want. That\u2019s how we run it.<\/p>\n<p id=\"b8f5\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: Everybody can see what everybody is up to.<\/p>\n<p id=\"db4a\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: Yeah, absolutely.<\/p>\n<p id=\"2b30\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: You\u2019re working in three locations, you said?<\/p>\n<p id=\"ad83\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: Well, right now, technically, we have people in Prague, San Francisco, and Boston.<\/p>\n<p id=\"f492\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: Why Boston?<\/p>\n<p id=\"ed7a\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: We just found a teammate who lives there. And she\u2019s great.<\/p>\n<p id=\"0b6f\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: Okay.<\/p>\n<p id=\"7304\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: She reached out to us and she\u2019s in Boston. That\u2019s the way it is.<\/p>\n<p id=\"ff1b\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">And two of our developers are in Sri Lanka, working remotely. They\u2019re taking some time off as well, but otherwise they\u2019re working remotely.<\/p>\n<p id=\"e0d0\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">It\u2019s the digital nomad approach. It\u2019s not like they do it all the time, but as long as they commit and deliver, my attitude is: \u201cI don\u2019t care where you are in the world.\u201d<\/p>\n<p id=\"e97b\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: Is it different teams that are located in different places? Is development in Prague, customer service in\u00a0\u2026<\/p>\n<p id=\"9d4a\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: No. We now have three teams. That team is product management, UX and engineering together as one team. It\u2019s cross functional. Ideally, I would also have product marketing on all the teams, but that\u2019s a shared function right now. That\u2019s how I envision to grow the company.<\/p>\n<p id=\"86ef\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">We might add a team like that here in the US, but it would again be the whole team: product management, engineering and design all together.<\/p>\n<p id=\"604d\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">I\u2019ve seen at my previous company, we had the separation roles. Product management in the US, and engineering and some of the design, or most of the design, in Europe. It\u2019s not optimal, because you need a super short feedback within the team.<\/p>\n<p id=\"29de\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">I think Zendesk, they did it differently. They had the team. I believe they still have teams in Denmark, but they have a whole team there. Or like Intercom, when you talk with Des, you can ask him about it. They had the onboarding or growth team here in San Francisco. And they had product management, design, and engineering together here. And then other teams like the platform teams, and the other product that they have were co-located in Ireland.<\/p>\n<p id=\"8307\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Rather than separating it by role, we co-locate people by teams.<\/p>\n<p id=\"ed75\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: Yeah, got it.<\/p>\n<p id=\"ea27\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: That\u2019s how we\u2019re going to do it as well.<\/p>\n<p id=\"8bc2\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: Did you start off in Prague and then you moved to San Francisco?<\/p>\n<p id=\"2725\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: No, I got here 10 years ago for my MBA at Berkeley and then stay afterwards.<\/p>\n<p id=\"c8e0\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">But I found a co-founder coincidentally at\u00a0\u2026 How things start in life\u2026 I was a judge on this startup competition in Prague years ago, and I met Daniel there. Then when I started looking for a co-founder, I wasn\u2019t sure where, location wise.<\/p>\n<p id=\"dc93\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">But I reached out to my next network and he said hey I\u2019m looking for a new opportunity and I\u2019d love to work with you on this. It started when I was still at GoodData and I posted on Facebook \u201ca friend of mine is looking for a co-founder for his startup\u201d. Kind of like secretly. That\u2019s how it started. We started working together and it just went from there.<\/p>\n<p id=\"d3d7\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Daniel is now in Prague, and we travel back and forth. That\u2019s how it\u2019s set up.<\/p>\n<p id=\"e92a\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: You didn\u2019t consciously choose the two locations of the company and then Boston neither. It just happened.<\/p>\n<p id=\"413d\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: Yeah, it\u2019s just life.<\/p>\n<p id=\"b676\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: Nice. Let\u2019s start wrapping up. We\u2019re almost at one hour.<\/p>\n<p id=\"9e9c\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: Cool.<\/p>\n<p id=\"5ab4\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: What is the latest book you\u2019ve read and why did you choose to read it?<\/p>\n<p id=\"701f\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: I\u2019m reading multiple books, because some I read for enjoyment.<\/p>\n<p id=\"c739\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">The book Mastery that I just mentioned. I\u2019m almost done with it. I\u2019m at the very end of it. And I really liked it. Again, I talked about it already, but it\u2019s so inspirational to hear stories of people who really achieve mastery in their lives. And they really make things happen.<\/p>\n<p id=\"e197\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">I read a lot of sales books recently. Here on my desk, I have the Sales Acceleration Formula, which is the story of how they built sales at HubSpot.<\/p>\n<p id=\"8249\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">I listen to books. That\u2019s what I like. When I go for a run. I run 5K three times a week, and I listen to audio books. Let me quickly pull up what\u2019s there.<\/p>\n<p id=\"8d86\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">The Challenger Sale. The Sales Acceleration Formula I mentioned. Spin Selling. Sell or be Sold. I read all these sales books recently.<\/p>\n<p id=\"acf7\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">I haven\u2019t read \u201cAlibaba: The House That Jack Ma Built\u201d. I have this lined up to read.<\/p>\n<p id=\"bd80\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Then I found this book Insanely Simple, which is the obsession that drives Apple\u2019s success. I haven\u2019t read. I\u2019m definitely going to do that.<\/p>\n<p id=\"5255\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">It\u2019s mostly business books, but I try to sneak in some more. Sapiens: A Great History of Humankind. I had read that, that was awesome.<\/p>\n<p id=\"b04a\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: Yeah, I still want to read it as well.<\/p>\n<p id=\"2efc\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: And design books. I bought this book. It\u2019s another book that I have on my desk. It\u2019s called \u201c100 Things Every Designer Needs to Know About People\u201d.<\/p>\n<p id=\"de7f\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">I decided that I\u2019m going to read, now, for 20 days, five points every day. I\u2019m going to get through it in 20 days. Let\u2019s see how that goes. I literally bought it yesterday or two days ago.<\/p>\n<p id=\"9632\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">I listen to audiobooks like double speed, or one and a half, or one and three quarters, to save time. Trained my brain to do that. I really enjoy that.<\/p>\n<p id=\"7c8d\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: Is there anything you wish you would have known when you started out?<\/p>\n<p id=\"938f\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: Oh, man, there\u2019s so many things. It\u2019s just\u2026<\/p>\n<p id=\"0354\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: One thing.<\/p>\n<p id=\"635a\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: One thing.<\/p>\n<p id=\"5698\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: The first thing that comes to mind.<\/p>\n<p id=\"39ed\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p id=\"9a30\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">One thing that I\u2019m still struggling with, when I\u2019m hiring people, I always still judge people or I evaluate them\u2026 I think of them as myself.<\/p>\n<p id=\"a923\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">I need to keep reminding myself that different roles need different people. I know that this is kind of like a big thing.<\/p>\n<p id=\"a45a\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">I have three interviews after this call. I\u2019m hiring even some very junior people right out of college. And I really need to remind myself what it was like when I was 23. Everything was new to me. Because I tend to treat everyone as equal and my expectation is that people know a lot and that they have a lot of experience already. I just need to keep reminding myself that it\u2019s not the case and that people are different in that sense.<\/p>\n<p id=\"2b07\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">You ask me the first thing that comes to my mind. Right now, at the moment.<\/p>\n<p id=\"8471\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: No, it\u2019s good advice. Hiring is not an easy thing to do correctly.<\/p>\n<p id=\"47ed\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: Yeah.<\/p>\n<p id=\"6211\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: In terms of advice: what\u2019s the best piece of advice you ever got?<\/p>\n<p id=\"bc37\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Hubert: I remember one piece of advice that I got: to constantly build networks and partner with people and just nurture relationships. That\u2019s definitely something that\u2019s paid off so much in my life.<\/p>\n<p id=\"767a\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">I just mentioned that Daniel, my co-founder, I met him because I did this free thing. I\u2019m going to go and judge a startup competition. And I stayed in touch with the people and that\u2019s how it happens. Winston who is here with me building the company. We worked together at a previous company, and it\u2019s been great and I stayed in touch. So just the value of \u201cyou never know what you\u2019re going to do in the future\u201d. And reaching out to people and staying in touch maturing their relationships being a good citizen.<\/p>\n<p id=\"30dc\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">That\u2019s valuable and I would encourage everyone to do it and even more so if you\u2019re young and starting.<\/p>\n<p id=\"8dd9\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">It\u2019s the value that your personal network will have for you in the future. It is so huge and you should nurture their relationships. You should even not only just focus on your discipline, on your narrow focus that you have, but even outside in different disciplines. It only creates value for you and gives you perspective.<\/p>\n<p id=\"926d\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">You take the people that you value the most with you from company to company, and from team to team.<\/p>\n<p id=\"284f\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">And friendships as well. Nurture friendships.<\/p>\n<p id=\"9912\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p translation-block\">Jeroen: Thank you for the advice! And for joining me on Founder Coffee.<\/p>\n<p id=\"cd01\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p graf--trailing translation-block\">Hubert: My pleasure. Thanks for doing this. This is awesome. I\u2019m really looking forward to listening to the other interviews.<\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/section>\n<section class=\"section section--body\">\n<div class=\"section-divider\">\n<hr class=\"section-divider\">\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"section-content\">\n<div class=\"section-inner sectionLayout--insetColumn\">\n<p id=\"9384\" class=\"graf graf--p graf--leading graf--trailing\">Enjoyed it? <a class=\"markup--anchor markup--p-anchor translation-block\" href=\"https:\/\/blog.salesflare.com\/founder-coffee\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\">Read Founder Coffee interviews with other founders.<\/a><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/section>\n<section class=\"section section--body section--last\">\n<div class=\"section-divider\">\n<hr class=\"section-divider\">\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"section-content\">\n<div class=\"section-inner sectionLayout--insetColumn\">\n<p id=\"fd55\" class=\"graf graf--p graf--leading\"><em class=\"markup--em markup--p-em translation-block\">We hope you liked this episode.<\/em><\/p>\n<p id=\"2c24\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p\"><em class=\"markup--em markup--p-em translation-block\">If you did, <\/em><a class=\"markup--anchor markup--p-anchor\" href=\"https:\/\/itunes.apple.com\/be\/podcast\/founder-coffee\/id1361209224\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\"><strong class=\"markup--strong markup--p-strong\"><em class=\"markup--em markup--p-em\">review us on iTunes<\/em><\/strong><\/a><em class=\"markup--em markup--p-em\">! <\/em>\ud83d\ude0d<\/p>\n<p id=\"fbbc\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p\"><em class=\"markup--em markup--p-em translation-block\">For more hot stuff on startups, growth and sales<\/em><\/p>\n<p id=\"074b\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p\">\ud83d\udc49 <a class=\"markup--anchor markup--p-anchor translation-block\" href=\"https:\/\/salesflare.typeform.com\/to\/Pi0dBQ\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\"><strong class=\"markup--strong markup--p-strong\"><em class=\"markup--em markup--p-em\">subscribe here<\/em><\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n<p id=\"ab3a\" class=\"graf graf--p graf-after--p\">\ud83d\udc49 <strong class=\"markup--strong markup--p-strong\"><em class=\"markup--em markup--p-em\">follow @salesflare on <\/em><\/strong><a class=\"markup--anchor markup--p-anchor\" href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/salesflare\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\"><strong class=\"markup--strong markup--p-strong\"><em class=\"markup--em markup--p-em\">Twitter<\/em><\/strong><\/a><strong class=\"markup--strong markup--p-strong\"><em class=\"markup--em markup--p-em\"> or <\/em><\/strong><a class=\"markup--anchor markup--p-anchor translation-block\" href=\"https:\/\/www.facebook.com\/salesflare\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\"><strong class=\"markup--strong markup--p-strong\"><em class=\"markup--em markup--p-em\">Facebook<\/em><\/strong><\/a><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<\/div>\n<\/section>\n<\/section>\n<\/article>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Oprichter Koffie aflevering 002<\/p>","protected":false},"author":8,"featured_media":55794,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"wl_entities_gutenberg":"","_crdt_document":"","footnotes":""},"categories":[75],"tags":[],"wl_entity_type":[122],"class_list":["post-55792","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-founder-coffee","wl_entity_type-article"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v27.4 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/product\/yoast-seo-wordpress\/ -->\n<title>Interview with Hubert Palan of Productboard - Salesflare blog<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Founder Coffee episode 002 - Interview with Hubert Palan, founder of Productboard.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/blog.salesflare.com\/nl\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/55792\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"nl_NL\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Hubert Palan of Productboard - Founder Coffee ep. 002\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Hubert is a product guy and a thinker at heart. His vision: more excellent products through better product management. 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